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Monday 14 March 2022

Fenamates (Diclofenac, Ponstan etc): certainly for Alzheimer’s, maybe some Epilepsy, but Autism? I’m Impressed!

 


Some readers of this blog are interested in the potential of mefenamic acid (MFA), sold as Ponstan, to treat autism. There is a lack of evidence currently. 

On the other hand, the evidence looks pretty overwhelming in the case of this class of drug to treat Alzheimer’s, hence today’s post. If you have a case of epilepsy at home, you can follow up on that loose end I left.

I also introduce MFA as a therapy for sound sensitivity and Misophonia. It was pretty impressive in the case of Monty, aged 18 with ASD.

 

The highlights are:

 

·        Fenamate NSAIDs reduce the incidence of Alzheimer’s

·        Fenamate NSAIDs delay the progression of those already with Alzheimer’s

·        Acetaminophen/Paracetamol worsens the progression of Alzheimer’s

·        Low dose aspirin is chemoprotective, as well as reducing blood clots that cause heart attack and stroke, but offers no Alzheimer’s benefit

·        MFA/Ponstan is very effective in reducing Monty’s sound sensitivity

 

The caveats 

As is always the case, there are caveats.

It is well known that low dose aspirin can cause dangerous bleeding events in specific sub-populations.

A study of 6 million people in Denmark showed that older people taking the Fenamate Diclofenac has a slightly higher risk of heart problems than other NSAIDs. The risk is actually very low and symptoms in those affected generally appear within a month (and disappear on cessation).

 

Incidence of Alzheimer’s

 

 


 Source:  https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/43129

 

The longer you live, the chance of developing Alzheimer’s rapidly increases. 

The signs are actual visible in a CT scan decades before the symptoms are evident.

Almost two-thirds of Americans with Alzheimer's are women.

Older Black Americans are about twice as likely to have Alzheimer's or other dementias as older Whites.

Of those with I/DD (Intellectual or Developmental Disability), it is people with Down Syndrome who are at major risk of early onset Alzheimer’s.  More than 50% will develop Alzheimer's. 

 

Non drug methods to protect against Alzheimer’s and other dementia 

In this blog we have encountered numerous dietary methods associated with reduced risk of all types of dementia and Alzheimer’s specifically.

·        Dietary nitrates (beetroot, spinach etc)

·        Betanin (the pigment in beetroot)

·        Ergothioneine (from mushrooms)

·        Spermidine (from wheatgerm and mushrooms)

·        Anthocyanin pigments from superfoods (bilberry, blueberry, purple sweet potato etc)

 

Maintaining normal blood pressure, blood glucose levels and cholesterol levels are big advantages. Normal body mass and regular exercise are also important.

Fenamates are a class of NSAID pain medication that many people have at home. In the US there are 10 million prescriptions a year of Diclofenac / Voltaren.

Another common Fenamate is Mefenamic Acid (MFA), commonly sold as Ponstan.  Ponstan is only expensive in North America. 

Most people’s reaction would be “Ah, yes those are pain medications, how could they help Alzheimer’s or other neurological conditions. Aren’t they the ones with those GI side effects?” 

NSAIDS deaden pain by blocking an enzyme called cyclooxygenase-2 (COX-2). Unfortunately, they also block to some extent a very similar enzyme called  cyclooxygenase-1 (COX-1). COX-1 promotes the production of the natural mucus lining that protects the inner stomach and contributes to reduced acid secretion.  Blocking COX-1 will cause GI side effects. Most people want to take an NSAID that is selective for COX-2.

 

Low dose Aspirin – the good COX-1 effect

There is a good effect from blocking COX-1, as from low dose aspirin (LDA), because it stops blood platelets sticking together and blocking blood flow.  LDA is also substantially chemoprotective and nobody has figured out why and it likely has nothing to do with COX1 or COX2. 

“Ishikawa et al. analyzed 51 randomized controlled trials (RCTs) and the cumulative evidence strongly supports the hypothesis that daily use of aspirin results in the prevention of cardiovascular disease (CVD), as well as a reduction in cancer-associated mortality [3].”

 

Anti-inflammatories in Alzheimer’s disease—potential therapy or spurious correlate? 

Epidemiological evidence suggests non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs reduce the risk of Alzheimer’s disease. However, clinical trials have found no evidence of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug efficacy. This incongruence may be due to the wrong non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs being tested in robust clinical trials or the epidemiological findings being caused by confounding factors. Therefore, this study used logistic regression and the innovative approach of negative binomial generalized linear mixed modelling to investigate both prevalence and cognitive decline, respectively, in the Alzheimer’s Disease Neuroimaging dataset for each commonly used non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug and paracetamol. Use of most non-steroidal anti-inflammatories was associated with reduced Alzheimer’s disease prevalence yet no effect on cognitive decline was observed. Paracetamol had a similar effect on prevalence to these non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs suggesting this association is independent of the anti-inflammatory effects and that previous results may be due to spurious associations. Interestingly, diclofenac use was significantly associated with both reduce incidence and slower cognitive decline warranting further research into the potential therapeutic effects of diclofenac in Alzheimer’s disease.

 



  

Diclofenac Use Slows Cognitive Decline in Alzheimer Disease 

CHICAGO — While most common non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) do not significantly affect cognitive decline in patients with Alzheimer disease or mild cognitive impairment, research presented at the 2018 Alzheimer’s Association International Conference, held July 22-26, 2018, in Chicago, Illinois suggests that diclofenac actually reduces cognitive deterioration, while paracetamol accelerates decline. 

The study investigated cognitive decline associated with NSAID use in 1619 patients from the Alzheimer’s Disease Neuroimaging Initiative dataset. The Mini-Mental State Examination and the Alzheimer disease assessment scale were used to evaluate cognitive functioning. Additional variables that potentially explain cognitive decline were identified for the cohort including gender, apolipoprotein E genotype, level of education, vascular disorders, diabetes, and medication use. 

 

Study results showed that most common NSAIDs, including aspirin, ibuprofen, naproxen, and celecoxib did not alter cognitive degeneration in patients with mild cognitive impairment or Alzheimer disease. Diclofenac was the only NSAID that demonstrated a correlation with a slower rate of cognitive decline (ADAS χ2=4.0, P =.0455, MMSE χ2=4.8, P =.029). Conversely, paracetamol was correlated with accelerated cognitive deterioration (ADAS χ2=6.6, P =.010, MMSE χ2=8.4, P =.004), as well as apolipoprotein E ε4 genotype (ADAS χ2=316.0, P <.0001, MMSE χ2=191.0, P <.0001). 

Diclofenac’s correlation with slowed cognitive deterioration provides “exciting evidence for a potential disease modifying therapeutic,” the study authors wrote. If paracetamol’s deleterious effects are confirmed to be causative, it “would have massive ramifications for the recommended use of this prolific drug.”

 

One reason why paracetamol use might harm Alzheimer’s brains is the same reason it harms autistic brains; it depletes the level of the key antioxidant glutathione (GSH).  GSH will be in big demand in a damaged brain. 

As we will see later in this post, Fenamate class NSAIDs affect numerous ion channels, specifically Kv7.1, as a result some people with heart conditions will get side effects linked to arrhythmia and should therefore discontinue use.

 

Common painkiller linked to increased risk of major heart problems: Time to acknowledge potential health risk of diclofenac and reduce its use, say researchers -- ScienceDaily

Common painkiller linked to increased risk of major heart problems

Time to acknowledge potential health risk of diclofenac and reduce its use, say researchers 

The commonly used painkiller diclofenac is associated with an increased risk of major cardiovascular events, such as heart attack and stroke, compared with no use, paracetamol use, and use of other traditional painkillers, a new study finds.

 

The risk is actual quite low and is going to appear straight away, in terms of arrhythmia. If any drug or supplement makes you feel unwell, stop taking it and tell your doctor.

 

Which Fenamate for Alzheimer’s?

To decide which Fenamate is best for Alzheimer’s and indeed which might be helpful in some autism, it helps to ponder the various modes of action unrelated to COX-1 and COX-2. 

We have the NLRP3 inflammasome, which is suggested as the mechanism in Alzheimer’s.

Here we want to block inflammatory messenger like IL-1beta. In the chart below we see that Ibuprofen is useless, Diclofenac has an effect, Mefenamic acid is better, but Meclofenamic acid is the star.

 


  

Fenamate NSAIDs inhibit the NLRP3 inflammasome and protect against Alzheimer’s disease in rodent models

Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) inhibit cyclooxygenase-1 (COX-1) and COX-2 enzymes. The NLRP3 inflammasome is a multi-protein complex responsible for the processing of the proinflammatory cytokine interleukin-1β and is implicated in many inflammatory diseases. Here we show that several clinically approved and widely used NSAIDs of the fenamate class are effective and selective inhibitors of the NLRP3 inflammasome via inhibition of the volume-regulated anion channel in macrophages, independently of COX enzymes. Flufenamic acid and mefenamic acid are efficacious in NLRP3-dependent rodent models of inflammation in air pouch and peritoneum. We also show therapeutic effects of fenamates using a model of amyloid beta induced memory loss and a transgenic mouse model of Alzheimer’s disease. These data suggest that fenamate NSAIDs could be repurposed as NLRP3 inflammasome inhibitors and Alzheimer’s disease therapeutics.

 

Fenamates and Ion Channels

https://scholarworks.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2671&context=aspubs

 

A very broad range of ion channels are affected by Fenamates.

Researcher Knut Wittkowski focuses on the effect on potassium channels in his theory that Fenamates can treat autism and prevent non-verbal autism if given to toddlers.


Fenamates actually affect numerous ion channels.


·        Chloride channels

·        Non-selective cation channels

·        Potassium channels (Kv 7.1 , KCa 4.2, K2p 2.1, K2p 4.1, K2p 10.1)

·        Opens large conductance calcium-activated K+ channels (BKCa channels) 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348973521_Pharmacological_inhibition_of_BKCa_channels_induces_a_specific_social_deficit_in_adult_C57BL6J_mice

“Genetic variants in large conductance voltage and calcium sensitive potassium (BKCa) channels have associations with neurodevelopmental disorders such as autism spectrum disorder, fragile X syndrome, and intellectual disability… These findings support the relationship between BKCa channel impairment and social behavior. This demonstrates a need for future studies which further examine the contribution of BKCa channels to social behavior, particularly during critical periods of development.

 

·        Sodium channels

·        Blockage of acid-sensing ion channels (ASICs), which are implicated in numerous disorders and had their own post.

https://epiphanyasd.blogspot.com/2017/08/acid-sensing-ion-channels-asics-and.html

 

Fig. 2. Ion channels targeted by flufenamic acid. Flufenamic acid produces inhibition or activation of ion channels. Colored bars near ionic channel name correspond to the estimated EC50 for flufenamic effect. References are provided within the text.

 Having noted the above graphic, which actually applies to the closely related flufenamic acid, a logical question is to ask about the effect of Flufenamic acid on seizures. 

Flufenamic acid shows promise as an epilepsy drug


I am not looking for a seizure therapy, so I leave that loose end for someone who is.

 

Conclusion

The best initial defence against dementia is good diet and exercise. Sometimes that will not be enough, because the healthier you are, the longer you will live and so the threat from dementia increases. Some people have genes that predispose them to dementia.

Since most of us struggle to follow diets like those of ultra healthy people in Okinawa, or on a Greek island, it might be worthwhile adding beneficial functional foods (neutraceuticals) to your existing diet.

I drink a small amount of beetroot juice daily, which is not such a hard step to take. In addition to benefits to your heart and brain, another benefit has just been discovered; now it improves the oral microbiome :-

 

Research suggests changes in mouth bacteria after drinking beetroot juice may promote healthy ageing 

“Our findings suggest that adding nitrate-rich foods to the diet – in this case via beetroot juice – for just ten days can substantially alter the oral microbiome (mix of bacteria) for the better.”

 

Many older people take NSAIDs to treat painful conditions like arthritis, switching to a Fenamate NSAID would not be a difficult option and would give some protection from Alzheimer’s.

People already diagnosed with Alzheimer’s currently do not have any effective therapies. Drugs like memantine exist, but are not so effective.  If I was in that position, I would want to take a low dose of Mefenamic Acid, if that was unavailable, I would settle for Diclofenac.

Diclofenac (25mg to 100mg) is prescribed in much lower doses than Mefenamic Acid (250 to 500mg tablets). We see that the effect on the NLRP3 inflammasome is actually far greater from Mefenamic Acid than Diclofenac. If the Alzheimer’s effect is via inhibiting the NLRP3 inflammasome, then you might expect that only a fraction of a standard capsule of Mefenamic would be needed.  That would then really reduce any GI side effects via the unwanted effect on COX-1 or any chance of arrhythmia. 

The ketone BHB, like fenamate NSAIDs, inhibits the NLRP3 inflammasome.  Since in Alzheimer’s the brain loses the ability to transport enough glucose across the blood brain barrier, ketones can also be used as a supplementary fuel for the brain. In one of my old posts on BHB I remember the doctor treating her husband with early onset Alzheimer’s with large doses of ketones – with some success.

 

And Autism?

Is Knut right that the potassium channel modulation from Mefenamic Acid will benefit autism, or at least a sub-set of severe autism? We do not know.

Mefenamic Acid (MFA) has so many biologic effects, I very much doubt Alzheimer’s is the only neurological condition where it could be beneficial. 

I should add that MFA undoubtedly will have negative effects in some people, this is inevitable.


Stop the noise !!

We did have a problem recently with extreme sound sensitivity. Monty, aged 18 with ASD, has had increasing sound sensitivity (Misophonia) for a year, but the only real issue was with sounds at mealtimes.  Over a recent weekend the sensitivity increased so much he could not sleep and also drank unusually large amounts of water (this also connects to K+).
 

The next day at school he had a geography exam and he was completely dysfunctional. Monty’s assistant had prewarned the teacher and she agreed that he can sit the exam again next week.   

Fortunately, in the meantime the problem has been now been fixed (see below).

I was suggested to take to Monty to a Neurologist, but since there is no Dr Chez where we live, I did ignore that idea. In mainstream neurology sound sensitivity is just something you have got to learn to live with, perhaps with some Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) or just a pair of ear defenders, or those noise-cancelling headphones.

I did experiment years ago on the effect of an oral potassium supplement on reducing sound sensitivity, so I have long considered potassium ion channels a prime target.

Both hearing and the processing of the inputs is highly dependent on potassium channels, so I did return to MFA.  It has also been a topic in some recent email exchanges and I have long had some unopened packs of MFA at home.  The answer would be found in the kitchen cabinet and not in the neurology department

In bumetanide responders the Na-K-2Cl cotransporter (NKCC1) is over-expressed; it mediates the “coupled electroneutral movement of 1Na+, 1K+, and 2Cl ions across the plasma membrane of neurons”. This means that with each two chloride ions entering the neuron, come one sodium ion and one potassium ion.

 


Source: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncel.2019.00048/full

 

In summary, bumetanide responders have too much chloride in their neurons, the bubble on the left, above.

 

Knut’s theory was put to me recently as “MFA works on reducing neuron excitation by opening K+ channels, emptying the cell, which in return fills up with Cl- “.

If this is the case, MFA would do the opposite of Bumetanide.

I actually think MFA’s effect is much more complex.

The original idea of Knut was to prevent severe non-verbal autism developing in toddlers, by blocking the progression of the disease. MFA was essentially a medium-term treatment for toddlers, until the critical periods in brain development were past.  It was not a treatment for teenagers, by then the damage would have been done.

I think changing the baseline level of K+ inside neurons is going to have many effects.  Changing the baseline level of Cl- has a profound impact on cognition.

Unfortunately, everything is interrelated and so nothing is simple.

I did try MFA to eradicate the extreme sound sensitivity. I was concerned it might reduce cognition, by raising intracellular chloride and undo the bumetanide effect.

The extreme sound sensitivity did disappear following a day or two of starting 250mg a day of MFA, but that may just have been a coincidence.  The more mild sound sensitivity, that we had all learned to live with for months, also vanished; I do not see how that could be a coincidence.  Mood also became very good, perhaps a bit uncontrollably happy.

The next question is what happens to sound sensitivity when I stop giving MFA.  Time will tell, but so far the benefits have been maintained.

Sound sensitivity/Misophonia is a classic feature of autism;  TV depictions often portray a lonely looking boy wearing ear defenders. For many with Asperger’s misophonia is their main troubling issue. None of these people are taking bumetanide.  Monty has taken Bumetanide for nearly 10 years and never needed ear defenders.

You, like Prof Ben-Ari, might wonder if bumetanide use might cause a problem with potassium and hence hearing.  There is indeed a known risk of ototoxicity, which is actually a rare but possible side effect of loop-diuretic use, particularly furosemide.

Fluid in the inner ear is dependent upon a rich supply of potassium, especially in that part of the ear that translates the noises we hear into electrical impulses the brain interprets as sound.

 


Source: http://www.cochlea.eu/en/cochlea/cochlear-fluids

 

“Endolymph (in green) is limited to the scala media (= cochlear duct; 3), is very rich in potassium, secreted by the stria vascularis, and has a positive potential (+80mV) compared to perilymph.

Note that only the surface of the organ of Corti is bathed in endolymph (notably the stereocilia of the hair cells), whilst the main body of hair cells and support cells are bathed in perilymph.”

 

It is important to maintain a high level of potassium (K+) in the endolymph.

How the potassium gets there is a little bit complicated but it relies on:

·        The NKCC1 transporter

·        Potassium channel Kir4.1

·        Potassium channel KCNQ1 (Kv7.1) and in particular subunit KCNE1

 

Bumetanide blocks NKCC1 and so can potentially reduce potassium in the endolymph. Very high dose bumetanide would indeed risk ototoxicity.

We saw earlier in this post that Fenamates affect Kv7.1.

It is very poorly documented in the research, but Fenamates also affect Kir4.1.

 

The cochlea functions like a microphone. The auditory nerve then runs from the cochlea, hopefully bathed in potassium, to a station in the brainstem. From that station, neural impulses travel to the brain – specifically the temporal lobe, containing the primary auditory complex, where sound is attached meaning and we “hear”.

 



The auditory cortex is highlighted in pink and interacts with the other areas highlighted above

 

   Angular Gyrus   Supramarginal Gyrus   Broca's Area   Wernicke's Area 

 

By James.mcd.nz - self-made - reproduction of combined images Surfacegyri.JPG by Reid Offringa and Ventral-dorsal streams.svg by Selket, CC BY-SA 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=3226132

 

The peripheral auditory system links the microphone/cochlea to the brain. The Primary Auditory Neurons begin in the cochlea and terminate in the Brainstem (in the Cochlear Nuclei). In these neurons potassium channels play a key role.  These channels include KNa1.1 and KNa1.2, which are regulated by intracellular Na+ and Cl, are found in a variety of neurons.

We assume that intracellular Cl is disturbed in bumetanide responsive autism.

Everything has to function to ensure normal hearing and with normal perception attached to that hearing.  Problems can arise in the cochlea (microphone) or in any of the above areas in the brain involved in transmitting or processing those signals.

 

Fenamates for some Aspie’s with Misophonia?

Misophonia has been covered in previous posts and we saw that therapies do exist in the research.  I think that there are multiple causes of sound sensitivity and likely also for those with Misophonia.

Low dose roflumilast was one interesting therapy, that works for some people but not others.  It does nothing for Monty regarding misophonia/sensory gating.

I wonder if some sound-troubled Aspies will respond to low dose MFA?

 

The top shelf

In our case, the answer to good health is usually found in the kitchen, but sometimes tucked away out of reach, up high at the back of a shelf, gathering dust, next to my stockpile of NAC.

There will be a dedicated post on sound issues in autism, which will draw everything together to include information from earlier posts.


and, not to forget, 


Danke vielmals Knut !

(Thanks to Knut!)








36 comments:

  1. I think the reason why there are no comments on this, is that everyone is rushing out to buy Ponstan ans try it. I know I will, very soon.
    This remarkable article just came out:
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/scitranslmed.abl9945?fbclid=IwAR3UgXbr5oUSjj7qFaRIydryf55goFB2kkt0lt5VGrFIqGl34prPJwxclDI

    This is a gamechanger.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Is it like bumentanide, that due to Ponstan being a generic drug, no one is investing to re-purpose it?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. MG, I think autism is not a high priority. Bumetanide now is showing promise in Alzheimer's where it has an unexpected effect on the differentially expressed genes in APOE4 Alzheimer's. The diuresis would be a problem, so maybe they will develop a better version. The new version can then be used for autism.

      Delete
  3. Tpes, can you distill that article in a sentence or two. It is beyond me :) Also, Peter, do you think taking Beet root pills offer the same benefits as juice? I was think not for the mouth since it is swallowed before touching the bacteria.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No the pills will not be as effective, this has even been studied. The dietary nitrate in the beetroot has to first be converted to nitrite. This happens in your mouth. If you have used mouthwash or just cleaned your teeth, you make much less nitrite. To get the most benefit, or to drink the least beet root juice you swirl it around your mouth and let the bacteria in your mouth do their work on it.

      Beet root juice does not taste bad, you soon bet used to it. You can measure the effect on blood pressure, but there are other effects you cannot easily measure.

      Delete
    2. Thank you Peter. Yep, that makes sense. I am like Monty (if I have that right) and often prefer the pills to some drink. Thank you for your great blog. Is there a good place for people in the US to buy Ponstan in the US without an RX?

      Delete
    3. Ponstan is not common in the US. A very similar drug is Voltaren, which is very common. Both need RX in the US, but you probably can find Voltaren somehow.

      Delete
    4. Here is an article that explains a bit better: https://medicalxpress.com/news/2022-03-microglia-mice-circulation-derived-myeloid-cells.html
      I don’t know whether we would say that the microglia are ‘defective’ in autism, but they are most certainly involved. The stem cells from the article are the easiest and cheapest to obtain type.

      Delete
  4. Hi Peter.
    I have been experimenting with Bumetanide for my son. It was fine for a couple of weeks and we even saw some positive improvements(such a complete elimination of head banging). Lately, however, he has been having severe anger outbursts when given bumetanide(even at 0.5mg, which is very low for his weight of 89 kg). These outbursts happen the day after bumetanide supplementation, and for no reason at all. He is fine on days we stop bumetanide, and no outbursts. Now, I'm not sure if this is a positive or negative sign. One theory I have is that Bumetanide is actually improving his awareness. He is severely addicted to some videos and seems to almost get a high from them(he behaves like a junkie on drugs when he watches these videos- he giggles non-stop and is almost in a trance like state. Attempts to remove devices are met with very aggressive resistance). I feel the bumetanide is making him more self aware and he is not getting as much of a high from his self stimulation, which makes him angry and more frustrated. Of course, I could be very wrong, and it could be another issue. I wanted to ask you about your opinion. What do you think ? Have you come across similar cases of bumetanide causing anger outbursts ? Any idea what may be causing this ?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If you able to take a blood draw, you could check his electrolytes. The problem one is nearly always potassium, but it could be one of the others. Low levels of potassium will affect behavior.

      If your son does not drink enough extra fluids to replace what is lost due to diuresis, he will become dehydrated. This can have many effects.

      I would add a daily potassium supplement, try and add more potassium in diet (banana, kiwi etc). My son takes 500mg of potassium supplement with his bumetanide, at breakfast time, he is much smaller than your son.

      Since he tolerated Bumetanide for two weeks, it is unlikely to be an allergy to he drug itself. Bumetanide is a sulfonamide containing drug, which some people do not tolerate.

      Delete
    2. My daughter has the same behaviours with videos as your son. I would recommend vision therapy, with possibly prism glasses to prevent visual stimming, and also total removal of these videos. They cause worsening of behaviours - you will see improvement overall when you remove them. Though it wont be easy. Best way is to go on a vacation (when you actually do go) without access to these videos and when you get back you remove whatever he was using to watch them for a week or two so the habit goes away.

      Delete
    3. Thanks Peter.
      I could not get a blood draw yet, but decided to just add 100 mg of potassium everyday. It has made a huge difference. He is no longer getting anger outbursts now.I will be getting a blood test this week, and supplement accordingly. Another strange thing I noticed is he doesn't have any diuresis whatsoever(even at 1 mg twice daily).Is this normal ?

      Delete
    4. Hi tpes. Thanks for your reply. My son did go to vision therapy a few years ago, but now we moved to a place where this service is unavailable. I'm trying my best to remove the devices, but since he harms himself(head banging, biting himself) when I take away his devices, I always relent and let him have it. It's a tough battle for parents like us.

      Delete
    5. Most people experience substantial diuresis from bumetanide, but a small group experience none. So your child is not unique.

      Delete
  5. Peter, we tried Ponstan. So, this is incredible. I played the song ‘Don’t let me be misunderstood’ by Santa Esmeralda on full volime on my phone which I leaned against her ear just now. I dare any of you to do this to YOURSELF.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Hi Peter

    A while back you mentioned there is a quick easy drug / supplement to determine that someone may be a Bumetanide responder, but cannot find the post. I believe you may have said the drug should be a sedative effect on non responders but maybe aggression / hyperactivity in responders?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My daughter is a bumetanide responder but doesn’t have that effect.

      Delete
    2. Ross, if a person has a paradoxical reaction to a GABAa agonist (benzodiazepines, picamilon supplement etc) they are likely to be a responder to bumetanide. Maybe a super-responder.

      But, it is not so simple. This does not mean only those people may benefit.

      Bumetanide has other potentially beneficial effects. It is now seen as effective in both preventing and treating Alzheimer’s disease. It was found to be the most potent drug that can correct the differentially expressed genes (those DEGs, I keep talking about) that are downstream of APOE4-related Alzheimer’s disease.

      https://www.nature.com/articles/s43587-021-00122-7

      So, in people with a normal response to benzodiazepines, the effect of Bumetanide modifying the expression of other genes may result in a bumetanide responder.

      This may explain why there appear to be responders and super-responders.

      The only way to know 100% if bumetanide will provide a benefit, is to make a trial.

      In my son, even after taking 2mg of bumetanide, he still has a paradoxical reaction to picamilon. This may mean that in his case bumetanide has only partially normalized intra cellular chloride. As Tyler pointed out, it might also be a strange reaction to niacin. Picamilion is a brain penetrating combination of GABA and niacin, discovered in Russia.

      Delete
  7. I very much look forward to the sequel of this post!

    Hyperacusis (another medical word for sound sensitivity) is common both on its own but also appears frequently in ME/CFS. There, it is often combined with light sensitivity. I haven't found any medical treatments described for hyperacusis, only the advice to use white noise for desensitization.

    Having looked into the biology, I wonder if there is a connection with HPA axis hyperactivity and stress-related disorders.
    Either it could be that HPA overactivity, leading to high release of adrenaline, cortisol and aldosterone, sharpens the senses too much through different mechanisms (enlarged pupils etc) which causes pain. Too much aldosterone or 'hyperaldosteronism' seems to lower potassium and cause muscle spasms. I wonder if it could affect hearing as well? The reason I wonder is because low aldosterone is involved in impaired hearing, and I even think it is being developed as a drug to treat age-related hearing deficits. If too little aldosterone lowers hearing, would too much make normal sounds be perceived as loud?

    There could just be coincidence and no causality of course - impaired inhibition in the brain could well cause both sound sensitivity as signals get overamplified _and_ overactivity of the HPA axis/stress.

    It's all very interesting, and I hope you take a look at aldosterone too Peter before finishing that next post.

    /Ling

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ling, I think that the diagnostic terms misophonia, hyperacusis and tinnitus are likely inadequate. I think that in most cases sensory dsyfunctions are entirely biological and therefore potentially treatable.

      I think terms like sensory gating are helpful, because they are measurable. Even in the case of impaired sensory gating there are multiple causes/treatments.

      I recently had an interesting message regarding TNF alpha inhibitors, that I did, long ago, suggest might give long lasting benefit in some autism. The (Aspie) lady in question found that when she received Humira she gets nearly 2 months protection from her auto-immune issues and it helps her light sensitivity problems and she no longer finds her dog barking irritating.

      Another reader, Grace, told us that intranasal desmopressin solves her daughter's sound sensitivity and the anxiety it causes.

      There clearly are answers out there.

      What effect did Ponstan have on your daughter's sensory issues, if she does have them?

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    2. It's hard to tell if my daughter had sensory issues at the time. She did not have any behaviors like protecting her ears or visual stimming. Being in busy environments was overwhelming for her though, so it can't be ruled out.
      The biggest impact of Ponstan was better verbal understanding. There was also changed/better "vision" and some sudden happiness as you describe with Monty.

      /Ling

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  8. Peter,
    aboutPonstan
    what would be the dose for 11y old 60lb kid?

    thank you.

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    1. I would try 250mg once a day and see if there is a benefit.

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  9. Hi Peter, I read this post again just to better understand - overall looks like really good option, except two main issues (COX-1 impact on mucosa and increased intracellular chloride), but sounds like benefit are much more to supersede hence worth a try. I know NAC is also reducing mucosa, hence a bit worrying for impact on stomach and gut mucosa (latter compromising gut wall integrity). I am going to Turkey soon, so will get Ponstan to give it a try. Alternatives i also think about are, double 200mg Potassium capsule and/or Baclofen (but latter has withdrawal concerns too). Which option here is the winner out of these three in your mind (for my daughter's case of misophonia specific to child crying) ?

    Another low priority question i had, speaking of NAC impact, whether do you think L-carnosine or Lipoic acid can be good cyclic alternative to NAC assuming these do not have impact on mucosa?

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    1. Timur, we had the same problem with the sound of a baby crying many years ago. At that time we resolved it with behavioral techniques and, in the end, instead of being upset by a baby crying, Monty would laugh. Then you end up have to teach empathy, because others don’t like it you laugh.

      It all depends how well your daughter understands what you tell her. We ended up talking to him about what makes a baby cry (hungry, in pain, tired, needs to be changed etc) then you try and get the child to guess why the baby is crying. Then the sound becomes less disturbing.

      Also, you make a point of exposing the child to small amounts of crying babies and hope to slowly build up tolerance. Just like with a nut allergy.

      I think Ponstan will be most effective, but I think you will get more wide ranging benefits. I would not use a drug just for the baby crying problem.

      I think some people are more susceptible to GI problems than others. We have had no problems with a decade of NAC every day.

      You can always add in a mucosa-protecting probiotic like, Lactobacillus plantarum 299v.

      I think ALA will have similar potential side effects to NAC

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    2. Useful insights Peter, thanks for the reply. it is indeed tricky having to teach every step - we used to worry about her being insensitive, after PS128 and avmacol she picked up a lot on social and now she does care a lot whats going on around (giving plaster to her sister when she had scratch), and potassium helped to remove her general sound sensitivity, but not suddenly this baby cry sensitivity (or possible anxiety) came up. Great idea that you implemented for Monty, i will definitely try that so she can get the context (her receptive language is good and understand what we explain).

      Noted, regarding Ponstan, sounds like worth a try at some point to see if any significant, but not necessarily just for baby cry.

      i do already use 299v, great probiotic, helped her with sleep too (somehow). Didnt know its gut wall help, great to hear. I heard about Akkermensia for gut wall, but havent done my full homework on that. Heard about glutamine helps with gut wall too, but apprehensive due to its possible impact on increasing glutamate while i am trying to normalize GABA (with Magnesium and L-theanine) to manage her general anxiety.

      i will keep NAC for now (i did use L-carnosine for a while but not same effect). She didnt react well too to ALA a year ago.

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    3. If Ponstan is available in Turkey, it is worth stocking up. It looks like some people do see a broad beneficial effect. It just takes a short trial with a low dose. In Greece they have a syrup and 500mg tablets all very cheap. In the US it is very expensive.

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  10. hi Peter. its been 6 weeks since we started bumetanide, the initial reaction was sleeping through the night which was a big big relief for us. Also noticed that he was less anxious of new places and people, I would say generally more "emotionally intelligent" . RT is non verbal so we had started leucovorin a few weeks before bumetanide, (hence the earlier msg about leucovorin causing agitation at night time and the fact that since we started bumetanide the night agitation had stopped). Anyhow for the past week RT has developed sound sensitivity, something that had gotten better at the time we initially started Bumetanide ( now that I think about it maybe because of the potassium supplements). I've been reading your blog about mefenamic acid and gave him a tiny dose( we have the 250 mg capsules here, and wasn't sure how much to give to a 18 kg child so only used a tiny amount) also read the article by Ben Ari " Holistic view of how bumetanide attenuates autism spectrum disorders" which explains NKCC1 and diuretic. His assistant reported that he didn't have trouble with sound at school today. The thing is that we had started off giving 0.5 mg twice a day and the trouble with increased sound sensitivity cropped up since we switched to 1 mg once a day. Could it be ototoxicity? am already supplementing with 300 mg potasium, would increasing it help?. any idea of how long one can give Ponstan for ? did you see any adverse reaction in cognition with monty while using mefenamic acid ?
    Thanks Anji

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    1. Ototoxicity can occur at very high doses, but it has never been reported in the autism trials. It does seem that potassium ion channels are involved in sound sensitivity and bumetanide will cause potassium to be lost in all the urination.

      You would not want to give the pain/fever dose of Ponstan long term. My assumption is that the low dose, equivalent to 250mg in an adult, will be tolerated long term by most people. There will always be exceptions.

      You may find that 0.5mg of bumetanide is sufficient in case.

      I see cognitive and speech benefits from Ponstan. It is a great intervention.

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  11. Thank you Peter,
    my husband was concerned about the cancelling effects bumetanide and ponstan might have on each other( ponstan causing efflux of chlorine). Then I read another comment from October where ponstan and bumetanide were given together. We have definitely seen a change in RT since bumetanide, not really cognition but rather behaviourwise and sound sleep. Ponstan sounds like something I would definitely like to try if it can help with speech. any idea whether Ling's daughter developed speech afterwards ? thanks Anji

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    1. Ling is dealing with a very specific single gene autism, where speech is specifically affected.

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    2. The combination of bumetanide plus ponstan works well in our case.

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    3. Hi Anji,
      I think Ponstan is one of the more clever things to try for language/speech, but the result will vary depending on the underlying cause. My daughters speech is still severely affected, while her language skills are constantly improving. Her genetic mutation is a bottleneck that is hard to overcome, but the same mechanism doesn't apply to other conditions.
      Also note the difference between speech (as in apraxia/muscle control) and learning grammar/vocabulary skills (long term memory), receptive language (understanding what is heard), verbal initiative and working memory (as in combining all the right words in the right order into sentences). These things could be due to different affected pathways and if so, targeted by different interventions.
      With an AAC device you can overcome speech issues to a great deal and working memory issues to some degree.
      I think I left a lot of comments on genes and language pathways somewhere in one of the posts on enhancing language skills here on epiphanyasd - for further reading.
      /Ling

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    4. Thank you Ling and Peter for your insights, am very grateful for this blog, its a mine of information. My son's receptive language is getting better, he is non verbal but can make himself understood otherwise. my goal is for him to be able to use an AAC device in the long run and to have some words. Mefenamic acid is definitely something on my list. :)

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  12. correction to the above post *ponstan blocking efflux of chloride * not causing efflux . thanks anji

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