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Wednesday 3 October 2018

Ketones and Autism Part 6 - Capric Acid (C10) for Mitochondrial Disease, in Particular Complex 1, plus more on Metformin



Capric Acid (C10) is so named because it smells like a goat (Goat in Latin = Caper)
Photographer: Armin Kübelbeck, CC-BY-SA, Wikimedia Commons

Rather than Goaty acid, C10 is called Capric acid, or indeed Decanoic acid (after its 10 carbon atoms). Today’s post is indirectly again about ketones, because if you eat a Ketogenic Diet (KD) you are likely to consume a fair amount of Capric acid (C10).
I have written a lot in this blog about mitochondria, even though I do not think my son has mitochondrial dysfunction. Clearly many people with autism do have a lack of one or more of the critical mitochondrial enzyme complexes that allow glucose to be converted to ATP (usable energy), by the clever process OXPHOS (Oxidative phosphorylation).

The “rate limiting” enzyme is usually Complex 1, meaning that is the one it is most important not to be short of.
Another favourite, but obscure, subject of this blog is PPAR gamma.

Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPARs) are a group of proteins that function as transcription factors regulating the expression of certain genes. Transcription factors are particularly important because they trigger numerous effects.
PPAR gamma plays a key role in fat storage and glucose metabolism, but has other functions. 

Activation of PPAR-gamma by Capric acid (C10) has been shown to increase the number of mitochondria, increase the mitochondrial enzyme citrate synthase, increase complex I activity in mitochondria, and increase activity of the antioxidant enzyme catalase. 
So, if you have autism and impaired mitochondrial function, C10 may well give a benefit because it can increase the peak power available to your brain.


The Ketogenic diet (KD) is an effective treatment with regards to treating pharmaco-resistant epilepsy. However, there are difficulties around compliance and tolerability. Consequently, there is a need for refined/simpler formulations that could replicate the efficacy of the KD. One of the proposed hypotheses is that the KD increases cellular mitochondrial content which results in elevation of the seizure threshold. Here, we have focussed on the medium-chain triglyceride form of the diet and the observation that plasma octanoic acid (C8) and decanoic acid (C10) levels are elevated in patients on the medium-chain triglyceride KD. Using a neuronal cell line (SH-SY5Y), we demonstrated that 250-μM C10, but not C8, caused, over a 6-day period, a marked increase in the mitochondrial enzyme, citrate synthase along with complex I activity and catalase activity. Increased mitochondrial number was also indicated by electron microscopy. C10 is a reported peroxisome proliferator activator receptor γ agonist, and the use of a peroxisome proliferator activator receptor γ antagonist was shown to prevent the C10-mediated increase in mitochondrial content and catalase. C10 may mimic the mitochondrial proliferation associated with the KD and raises the possibility that formulations based on this fatty acid could replace a more complex diet. We propose that decanoic acid (C10) results in increased mitochondrial number. Our data suggest that this may occur via the activation of the PPARγ receptor and its target genes involved in mitochondrial biogenesis. This finding could be of significant benefit to epilepsy patients who are currently on a strict ketogenic diet. Evidence that C10 on its own can modulate mitochondrial number raises the possibility that a simplified and less stringent C10-based diet could be developed.

Capric Acid (C10) as a PPARγ agonist

As shown in the above study the mechanism by which C10 benefits the mitochondria is via PPARγ agonism.

Here is another study confirming that C10 is indeed a PPARγ agonist.


Background: Mechanism of action of medium chain fatty acid remains unknown.

Results: Our results show that decanoic acid (C10) binds and activates PPARγ.

Conclusion: Decanoic acid acts as a modulator of PPARγ and reduces blood glucose levels with no weight gain.

Significance: This study could lead to design of better type 2 diabetes drugs.


Other PPARγ agonists
PPARγ agonists have been covered previously in this blog and we know that glitazones, a class of drugs for diabetes, do improve some types of autism. Glitazones are PPARγ agonists.

Metformin, a very widely used drug for type 2 diabetes, works differently to Glitazones, but I did suggest a while back it should help some types of autism. Last year it was indeed found to be beneficial in Fragile X.


 "Basically, it's something like a wonder drug," Sonenberg said.
The study suggests that metformin might also be used to treat other autism spectrum disorders, said Ilse Gantois, a research associate in Sonenberg's lab at McGill.
"We mostly looked at the autistic form of behaviour in the Fragile X mouse model," explained Gantois, who is co-lead author with McGill researchers Arkady Khoutorsky and Jelena Popic. "We want to start testing other mouse models to see if the drug could also have benefits for other types of autism."

Metformin is very cheap and has been used in humans for 60 years. It is another example of re-purposing a drug from Grandpa’s medicine cabinet to treat Grandson’s autism. 

Metformin has been trialled to combat obesity in idiopathic autism caused by antipsychotics. It did help with weight gain, but no comments were made about behavioural improvements, but then those studied were on antipsychotic drugs, which might mask such effects. 
Glitazone-type drugs appear more problematic than Metformin.

There are natural PPAR gamma agonists and they are often used to lower cholesterol, lower blood sugar and improve insulin sensitivity.
Sytrinol, a product containing flavanols tangeretin and nobiletin does indeed have a positive effect on some people’s autism, but for most people (but not all) the effect is lost after a few days.

Our doctor reader Maja, did suggest combining it with a PPARα agonist to see if the effect might be maintained.
This combination has indeed been researched for type 2 diabetes.               

The effect of dual PPAR alpha/gamma stimulation with combination of rosiglitazone and fenofibrate on metabolic parameters in type 2 diabetic patients.


There actually is another natural substance that is an agonist of both PPARγ and PPARα, Berberine, the alkaloid long used in Chinese medicine.
In the research it is suggested that BRB localizes in mitochondria, inhibits respiratory electron chain and activates AMPK”, which is not what you would want. But this may not be correct.

People who like supplements might want to follow up on Berberine.
Berberine is used by many people with diabetes and a few with autism, for all kinds of reasons, from mercury to GI problems.

Berberine is a potent agonist of peroxisome proliferator activated receptor alpha.


Although berberine has hypolipidemic effects with a high affinity to nuclear proteins, the underlying molecular mechanism for this effect remains unclear. Here, we determine whether berberine is an agonist of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alpha (PPARalpha), with a lipid-lowering effect. The cell-based reporter gene analysis showed that berberine selectively activates PPARalpha (EC50 =0.58 mM, Emax =102.4). The radioligand binding assay shows that berberine binds directly to the ligand-binding domain of PPARalpha (Ki=0.73 mM) with similar affinity to fenofibrate. The mRNA and protein levels of CPT-Ialpha gene from HepG2 cells and hyperlipidemic rat liver are remarkably up-regulated by berberine, and this effect can be blocked by MK886, a non-competitive antagonist of PPARalpha. A comparison assay in which berberine and fenofibrate were used to treat hyperlipidaemic rats for three months shows that these drugs produce similar lipid-lowering effects, except that berberine increases high-density lipoprotein cholesterol more effectively than fenofibrate. These findings provide the first evidence that berberine is a potent agonist of PPARalpha and seems to be superior to fenofibrate for treating hyperlipidemia.


                                                                                                                                     

Sources of Capric Acid (C10)
Goat milk is a good source of capric acid.
Capric acid is 8-10% of coconut oil and 4% of palm kernel oil

Capric acid is a large component (about 40%) of the less expensive MCT oil supplements.


1.2. Fatty acid composition in goat milk fat Average goat milk fat differs in contents of its fatty acids significantly from average cow milk fat, being much higher in butyric (C4:0), caproic (C6:0), caprylic (C8:0), capric (C10:0), lauric (C12:0), myristic (C14:0), palmitic (C16:0), linoleic (C18:2), but lower in stearic (C18:0), and oleic acid (C18:1) (Table 1). Three of the medium chain fatty acids (caproic, caprylic, and capric) have actually been named after goats, due to their predominance in goat milk. They contribute to 15% of the total fatty acid content in goat milk in comparison to 5% in cow milk (Haenlein, 1993). The presence of relatively high levels of medium chain fatty acids (C6:0 to C10:0) in goat milk fat could be responsible for its inferior flavour (Skjevdal, 1979). 

             
Conclusion
If someone responds well to coconut oil or cheaper MCT oil the reason may have more to do with PPAR gamma and improved mitochondrial function than anything to do with ketones and what they do.
Cheaper MCT oils are mainly a mixture of C8 and C10. To maximize the production of the ketone BHB you really want just C8, but if what you really need is a PPAR gamma agonist, to perk up your mitochondria, it is the C10 you need.
You may indeed benefit from both ketones and agonizing PPAR gamma, in which case you either follow the Ketogenic Diet, or supplement BHB, C8 and C10.
I think this explains why some people with autism reportedly respond well to teaspoon-sized doses of cheaper MCT oil or small amounts of coconut oil.
If you have Complex 1 mitochondrial dysfunction then a dose of Capric acid (C10) is likely to help.
Berberine may, or may not be, as effective as C10. I doubt we will ever know. I think C10 is the better option. 
I wonder when the Canadian researchers will publish their results showing whether Metformin is beneficial beyond Fragile X syndrome. They do not really know why it helps, but that is a repeating theme in medicine.  It is a cheap safe drug, so it would be a pity to waste time finding out if it could be repurposed for some autism.



39 comments:

  1. Is Capric Acid the same as Caprylic Acid? Thanks

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    1. No, it is different.

      Caprylic acid = C8

      Capric acid = C10


      It is confusing, I totally agree.

      Delete
  2. Maybe Cinnamon deserves to be mentioned (again!) in this post:

    "In vitro studies demonstrate that cinnamon increases the expression of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors γ and α (PPARγ/α) and their target genes such as LPL, CD36, GLUT4, and ACO in 3T3-L1 adipocyte."
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2602825/

    /Ling

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    Replies
    1. Ling, cinnamon is possibly the cheapest intervention that has significant biological effects. It is also good for diabetes and pre-diabetes. Rosemary and oregano are also PPARγ agonists.

      Cinnamon has other unrelated potential benefits, but people with histamine intolerance are likely to get an allergic reaction to it.

      You need a heaped teaspoonful everyday. Ideally you would add a teaspoon of high flavanol cocoa (expensive) and one of turmeric (very cheap) and take with Greek yoghurt to increase bioavailability of the turmeric.

      Delete
  3. Interesting, I swear by eating goat cheese.
    Would you say that in addition to its butyrate contect present in goat cheese that the chances are also high it contains a fair amount of C10 in comparison to other food sources (mainly dairy types) with similar total fat content?

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    1. Aspie1983, anything made from goat milk should be rich in the same fatty acids. So goat cheese should be rich in C10. In one source (http://grasasyaceites.revistas.csic.es/index.php/grasasyaceites/article/view/1513/1620#RT0001

      it says that 8.4% of the fat in goat cheese is C10. Goat cheese is about 30% fat, so you can do the maths and see how much C10 you are getting.

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  4. Hi Peter and community,

    Peter – this is another terrific installment in your outstanding series on Ketones.

    In fact, based on some of the things you noted in previous installments, we stated using C8 and BHB about 2 weeks ago and … we really believe it is significantly helping our daughter. Not only have we seen noticeable improvements in her speech, but also in behaviours, mood, and general cognition. We thought maybe we were just being optimistic and then we started to get such positive feedback from my daughter’s teacher and speech therapist (neither of whom know about the C8 and BHB) all of a sudden and during the last week that we are almost 100% sure that C8 and BHB are doing something positive.

    So then I read the latest installment as I’m about to post the above, and … wow, I’m going to have to add Capric Acid to my current treatment regimen (which is quite modest now). The reason is that we had run a mito test with Dr. Goldenthal based on feedback from you / the board and his results were that our daughter was at the very low end of normal in Citrate Synthase and actually low in Complex I. Of course, Dr. G’s test was experimental and he even noted that the results may have been skewed if the sample wasn’t kept very cold (although I did everything asked to make sure the sample was kept cold). All this to say, thanks to your latest series, we decided to try C8 and BHB and the results we’re seeing appear to be better than anything else we’ve ever tried. IF the mito results were accurate, and Capric Acid will provide additional benefits, we will be very very happy.

    For those who haven’t used C8 or BHB, we started with half a teaspoon of C8 once a day and a pinch of BHB once a day and then quickly moved to where we’re at now, which is one teaspoon twice a day of C8 and about 200 mg of BHB twice a day. We did not have any issues at all – no tummy issues or any side effects at all.

    I just ordered some MCT that is ~60% C8 and 40% Capric Acid and will add that to the current regimen to see if C10 does anything in light of my daughter’s CS and C1 results from Dr. G.

    If C10 doesn’t add any benefit, what we’re seeing from C8 and BHB is already a big win. I’ll keep the board posted on how the C8 + BHB + soon to be C10 goes.

    Please keep in mind that each child is different, and so what may help my child may not do anything for anyone else.

    We’re also still waiting on the researchers we are working with to get some results that can help us with our daughter’s known genetic mutation. We know the mutation, but neither we nor the teams of top researchers know exactly what the mutation is doing. Thankfully they are looking into it and will let us know when they know.

    Have a great day all!

    AJ

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    1. So happy for you AJ that you've found a therapy that helps!
      Btw, you never tried Bumetanide, did you?

      /Ling

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    2. Very glad to hear that AJ,
      Its been tempting for me to try either BHB or keto diet myself aswell, especially considering I seem to have a preference for fatty food. Then again knowing myself, going without carbs = stress stress stress (no surprise as carbs powerfully lower cortisol and increase serotonin).
      From what I understand keto has an adaptation phase so to speak where the body gets used to doing daily stuff without carbs.
      Ive always wondered how people can exercise on keto diets though, the body obviously prefers glycogen stores as fuel for especially powerfull muscle contractions like sprints and such as not having enough glycogen is highly catabolic.
      Keep in mind my body seems to have problems with amino acids aswell, im guessing this is why PQQ is helpimg me lots aswell, it powerfully decreases urinary amino acids in human studies, powerfully boosts PGC1A (I believe keto diet also does this). Also exercising too much is very bad for my emotional state, it makes me VERY DULLED and VERY UNRECEPTIVE towards cues. Ive seen this over and over, sometimes it takes over a week with no exercise at all to recover from that.
      Exercise obviously also increases serotonin, lactate, urea, ck all of which are elevated in me (only serotonin is unconfirmed in blood tests, which is impossible to accurately reflect brain serotonin I think, but anyhow 23andme releaves I have 2 short serotonin transporter versions, basically means my brain is permanently on an antidepressant).

      @Peter,
      Ive only seen you mentioned the HOMER1A model only once before and it was in a post about shank3 or something else I believe. I think I believe I have this mutation.
      After digging through months worth of papers I have seen that:
      Both sleep deprivation and alcohol hangovers increase Adenosine (yes same as cordyceps basically).
      Now A1R upregulation during sleep deprivation, does lots of things: inhibition of most calcium channels, activation kv1.2, but most strikingly it seems increase PLCy1 activation, this triggers the whole IP3/PKC/PKA cascade (remember my inositol/phosphatidylserine very noticeable results?).

      HOMER1A autism model seems to have problems with fear ACQUISITION, and its exactly this that I seem to have. I rarely flinch when I get hit by a car, rarely ever get an adrenalin response and I allready suspected Im low on noradrenalin/adrenalin.

      Now piracetam has recently been shown to increase locus coeruleus activity (something which is also altered during sleep depr., that is: switch from phasic to tonic firing mode).
      PQQ INCREASES prostaglandins btw (remember the fever/autism like normalization of behavior? correct this requires prostaglandins and thus using painkillers and crap like that will worsen social issues).

      In fact I have tried yohimbine 2mg (for 2 days as a test) - note this is a substance that is considered an anxiogenic and it actually aggrevates PTSD like problem but have been shown to affect fear reinstatement. And guess what? Not the day after last yohimbine I took but the day after that and this lasted for like 3-4 days in total I could flinch again! and I felt a wave of empathy towards. In fact I have been thinking of trying it again (please note 2mg is a very small dose and Im very carefull with this knowning how powerfull effects this 'herbal drug' can have).

      Also if you think about why would someone seek out social contacts if someone cannot detect fear/or understand the consequences of a dangerous situation? You wouldnt need anyone like that, thats right, because there is no threat!

      Also please note its been a while since my last psilocybin microdose, I wanted to make sure that did not affect the yohimbine.

      Differential fear conditioning in Asperger's syndrome: implications for an amygdala theory of autism.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17321555

      Overexpression of Homer1a in the basal and lateral amygdala impairs fear conditioning and induces an autism-like social impairment
      https://molecularautism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13229-016-0077-9

      Delete
    3. Hi AJ,

      Glad to hear your story, I just ordered some C8 to start with my sons. Will keep the board posted. After reading your post, I decided to buy the BHB too. Can I ask you which one did you buy? (thanks for the tips on dosage)

      They also found the same genetic mutation on both my sons (and the mother), but like you, they have no idea about the consequences of that mutation and if it has any link to the autism of my sons...

      Thanks for sharing and thanks for all the articles Peter, I hadn't been here in a while, the Ketones articles are really interesting.

      David

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    4. Hi everyone,

      Thanks for your kind responses!

      Ling - I never tried Bumetanide as I tried to get it from my Integrative Medicine Doc and he wouldn't write the script, and when I tried to order it from Mexico, I was told by the Mexican pharmacy that Canadian Banks don't let their Visa customers use their Visa on Mexican pharmacies. So I gave up trying to get Bumetanide and I looked for alternatives, such as Astaxanthin.

      What will be interesting for me is that we are extremely fortunate to now have 2 teams of researchers looking into my daughter's gene, and if they find out that the issue is one that Bumetanide could help, I believe one of them may offer to provide a script off-label.

      Aspie - the results were almost instantaneous, so if you are tempted to try it, the good news is that if it works for you, you should know very quickly.

      Peter - Thank you so much for this series. If this really is going to take my daughter to a whole new level, we owe it all to you. One of the research teams had told me to let them know if any treatments we use help, and I will let them know if we see a sustained response. That could help them in their research, so you may have also helped in that regard.


      David - I actually use CodeAge Instant Keto, and my C8 is also from CodeAge. I liked what I read about their Instant Keto. Best of luck David, I really hope this helps. By the way, the best thing we ever did is to look up research on our daughter's mutation and reach out to the researchers who were focused on that gene. We just searched for the gene on PubMed, found out who had some recent papers on it, and sent e-mails. I'm sure you've already done this, but if you haven't, it's a great avenue to pursue. It has been extremely helpful to us. Best of luck David!

      AJ

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    5. Thanks AJ.
      I actually hadn't looked, thanks for the tip. Only found 3 articles on PubMed, nothing related to autism... I'll keep searching.
      Had a friend scientist have a look into it, and he told me "research was very immature for that gene (PDZD4), that it had 2331 functional associations with biological entities in 8 categories"... But I'll keep looking.
      Thanks for the C8/BHB brands, I'll look into it.
      David

      Delete
    6. David, PDZD4 is considered both a cancer gene and an autism gene. Just google "PDZD4 autism".

      There is also a link to PGC-1, which is involved in energy metabolism and mitochondria.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/geoprofiles?term=PDZD4

      Delete
    7. Thank you Peter, I did try to google it in the past, but I got lost pretty quickly.. only relevant paper I found was one from 2010:

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3289139/

      But I don't really know what to do with it... should I follow AJ's advice and send email to these researchers?
      As for the PGC-1 link, I'm going to read all your articles related to that. Maybe I could give a try to the Mito cocktail you mention in the regressive autism section.

      Delete
    8. David, yes I would follow AJ's advice and send emails to researchers who mention this gene in their research.

      It is a very niche area and you just need to find the handful of people who are interested.

      We all have genetic mutations and they usually just increase the chance of something happening and so PDZD4 may not be the cause of your child's autism, but it is certainly worth following up on. If the child has reduced exercise endurance, that is an indicator of possible mitochondrial dysfunction. If the child is a star athlete, mitochondrial dysfunction is highly unlikely.

      Delete
    9. Aspie1983 - "Its been tempting for me to try either BHB or keto diet myself aswell, especially considering I seem to have a preference for fatty food. Then again knowing myself, going without carbs = stress stress stress (no surprise as carbs powerfully lower cortisol and increase serotonin)."

      I can't speak to your specific condition. But I used to be a carb addict and I would constantly consume bread, chips, candy, etc. Going without carbs stressed me out, as it meant the predictable symptoms of addiction withdrawal. Sugar, in particular, temporarily boosts energy and serotonin, but then they drop lower than before eating the sugar. This is often seen as the afternoon slump following lunch.

      "From what I understand keto has an adaptation phase so to speak where the body gets used to doing daily stuff without carbs."

      It can have an adaptation phase, but it depend on the individual. Carb addiction will make it especially difficult and many people are carb addicted. It might take a while for one's body to become fat-adapted, in being able to burn fat easily. All of this depends on how much metabolic damage one has from a lifetime of bad eating habits. I was fortunate to change my diet before getting any serious metabolic disease like diabetes, atherosclerosis, fatty liver, Alzheimer's, etc.

      "Ive always wondered how people can exercise on keto diets though, the body obviously prefers glycogen stores as fuel for especially powerfull muscle contractions like sprints and such as not having enough glycogen is highly catabolic."

      Theoretically, glucose does offer quick energy for short bursts of physical activity. Yet I can do wind sprints while in ketosis. There isn't any noticeable effect, as ketosis gives me plenty of stamina. Besides, one can have some carbs while remaining in ketosis. And some serious athletes doing the keto diet are able to eat higher amounts of carbs while burning them off through intense exercise.

      "Keep in mind my body seems to have problems with amino acids aswell, im guessing this is why PQQ is helpimg me lots aswell, it powerfully decreases urinary amino acids in human studies, powerfully boosts PGC1A (I believe keto diet also does this)."

      It could be noted that a keto diet doesn't require high amounts of protein. One could, instead, include lots of non-starchy vegetables slathered or cooked in oils, butter, lard, tallow, etc. In fact, many keto advocates warn about too much protein since the body can turn it into glucose through gluconeogenesis. This concern probably isn't warranted, though, as gluconeogenesis is very limited.

      "Also exercising too much is very bad for my emotional state, it makes me VERY DULLED and VERY UNRECEPTIVE towards cues. Ive seen this over and over, sometimes it takes over a week with no exercise at all to recover from that."

      You might find this is different while in ketosis. Ketones are a brain super fuel. Being in ketosis should make you less mentally dull. Then again, you could have something entirely else going on, but it's always worth experimenting with.

      Delete
  5. Hi Peter, could you answer please. If NAC was taken within 1.5 months and we saw the slight changes only with first week of use , but after the 1st week it didnt show anything. Shall we in this case cancel it and try another antioxidant, or anyway continue with NAC?! Why the child might not respond to NAC, but can respond to broccoli for instance. What it depends on?

    Many thanks for your response , Ella

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    1. Ella, if NAC does not give a benefit then best not to give it. NAC and ALA are the best antioxidants, because they are safe and potent. But they are only beneficial to people with oxidative stress. There is no benefit to someone who is in perfect health.

      The broccoli powder is used to produce sulforaphane, which has many effects, including antioxidant ones, but sulforaphane is also an HDAC inhibitor. NAC is not an HDAC inhibitor. In some people the HDAC inhibitor effect of sulforaphane may explain why they benefit from it. A lot remains unknown.

      Broccoli is a very safe intervention, the problem is you do not know how much sulforaphane is being produced. There is an enzyme needed, called myrosinase. Some people have gut bacteria that produces a lot of myrosinase, so they will make a lot of sulforaphane out of broccoli.

      Some producers add extra myrosinase to their broccoli product and some claim to have preserved it during processing. Processing broccoli usually kills the naturally occurring myrosinase in it.

      Delete
  6. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  7. Peter, The problem is that i don't really know how this benefit looks like ;-) its a first supplement i started to give. During the first week we saw tiny language improvements, and then it stopped. so the question is do i have to see a certain effect every time i give a dose of NAC? Perhaps it gives a protection on the cellular level ( which is already beneficial) but it is unseen for me ?
    when you say < responder or non responder> i presume you mean that you see a certain result every time when you give a supplement . Or you only measure it in one month or so??
    sorry for my stupid questions . I just try to figure out .
    with many thanks once again, Ella

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    1. Ella, some interventions do take time to make a biological effect, bumetanide is a good example. But many interventions show an effect within a day or two.

      NAC will reduce oxidative stress, if it exists, very quickly. You can measure oxidative stress via the GSH:GSSG ratio, but nobody seems to do so. In my son NAC stops repetitive behaviors (stimming), but in some people it stops self-injurious behaviour. Oxidative does different things to different people. People with COPD have oxidative stress and its effect is to stop drugs working effectively, reducing oxidative stress in this case makes their asthma drugs work better.

      Perhaps in some autism there is oxidative stress but it does not effect behaviour, just like it does not affect behaviour in someone with COPD.

      The research does show that most, but not all, people with autism have oxidative stress.

      In my son I need to give NAC 3 or 4 times a day. Once a day would not do much good.

      Delete
  8. thank you very much for the explanation Peter

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  9. Peter, this is really great post series and I looked into it again after the speech therapist asked me today about her another student who improves while having fever. Do you think there is a relation between fever effect, ketosis during febrile infections (easy to check) and BHB/MCT treatment response?

    Also I wonder if we have any clue what ketone bodies dose/BHB blood level is able to induce epigenetic effect via HDAC?

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  10. Agnieszka, it looks like non-diabetic ketosis in children is a recognized issue and one that can be caused can be fever; dehydration is another possible cause. Apparently it is much less of an issue in adults. Is the fever effect in autism more common in younger children than adults?

    It might be that fever raises ketones only in some children (or just some more than others), so testing urine with ketone strips would be a good idea.

    Measuring the epigenetic effect is something that is now possible. Recall in a post on turmeric, the researcher at University College London detected an epigenetic change in specific genes, establishing that there is indeed a measurable biological effect of adding turmeric to your diet.

    Given the research interest in using HDAC inhibitors to treat single gene "autisms", you would hope that somebody is planning a comparison of the potency of different drugs, ideally in humans.

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    1. Agnieszka, just to add about bumetanide and dehydration. Some people note an immediate benefit from bumetanide, but this cannot be due to reducing chloride (which takes many days), perhaps it is actually dehydration (raising ketones), or perhaps it is just due to changing electrolyte levels.

      Delete
    2. Peter, perhaps there are more than one mechanism involved in fever effect (e.g. heat shock proteins), but it would be interesting to know what is the role of ketones as simple therapeutic target.

      The only report mentioning fever effect in adults that comes to my mind is 2016 sulforaphane trial. They found it in 80% participants, but admitted it was unusually high. The trial was about sulforaphane and not ketones, so no one bothered with taking closer look at ketosis significance.

      Indeed I saw immediate bumetanide impact on mood, but major effects began to emerge after 10 days.

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    3. ..or, just maybe, the early bumetanide effect is related to those other BDNF-increasing and anti-oxidant effects it has (according to that paper on antidepressants+furosemide I linked to two posts ago).

      /Ling

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  11. Peter, do you think C10 could be efficient for cognitive teething issues?

    /Ling

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  12. Ling, what do you mean by cognitive teething issues? Do you mean development delay?

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    Replies
    1. Sorry for writing weirdly!
      Waht I meant is that every time my daughter gets a new tooth, I see a cognitive decline, and a lot of irritability. It is a bit similar to being sick. I was thinking of your old post on PPAR gamma when Monty had wobbly teeth, but maybe that is different from the process when milk teeth erupt(?)

      /Ling

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    2. Ling, pro-inflammatory cytokines are used to signal milk teeth to erupt and later on for their roots to dissolve and permanent teeth to erupt. So you will have elevated cytokines like IL-6 on and off until you have all your permanent teeth.

      My solution was to use a modest amount of ibuprofen, this did control the problematic behaviour.

      In your case you see a cognitive decline. This makes sense. I would try some ibuprofen syrup.

      I would certainly see if C10 or C8 helps your daughter, irrespective of the teething issue. Whatever product you use, do taste it and test it on yourself first. I bought some "food grade" C8, that definitely did not pass my quality testing.

      Delete
  13. I read that
    "Lipoic acid (LA), also known as α-lipoic acid and alpha lipoic acid (ALA) and thioctic acid is an organosulfur compound derived from caprylic acid (octanoic acid)."

    Does this mean that supplementing with C8 enhances synthesis of ALA?

    Also, I wonder if there is a connection between Agmatine and BHB?:

    "Experiments with isolated mitochondria and 13C-labeled octanoic acid also demonstrated that agmatine increased synthesis of 13C-labeled β-hydroxybutyrate [..]
    In this study we hypothesized that Agm stimulates mitochondrial FAO, thereby increasing the availability of substrates and ATP required for urea synthesis. [..]
    In the current study, stimulation of FAO occurred at a perfusate Agm concentration (0.1 mM) that exceeds reported plasma levels, but the concentration of Agm in plasma and liver may increase severalfold under certain conditions such as a diet supplemented with high arginine and, perhaps more importantly, after increased release of Agm by intestinal bacteria. Regulation of hepatic FAO and ketogenesis by Agm may occur naturally in normal and disease states, and may have
    significant implications for whole body energy metabolism.

    http://www.jbc.org/content/281/13/8486.long

    /Ling

    ReplyDelete
  14. Looks like also aspirin has an effect on PPARa:

    Aspirin binds to PPARα to stimulate hippocampal plasticity and protect memory
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6077698/

    /Ling

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ling, I did write somewhere about low dose aspirin being an interesting intervention. The problem is that aspirin can cause bleeding in your intestines and lots of people with autism already have GI problems.

      Delete
    2. "Long-term use of nonsteroidal antiinflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) may cause serious side effects such as gastric mucosal damage. Resveratrol, a naturally dietary polyphenol, exhibited anti-inflammatory activity and a protective effect against gastric mucosa damage induced by NSAIDs. In this regard, we synthesized a series of resveratrol-based NSAIDs derivatives (..)"
      Synthesis and Biological Evaluation of Novel Resveratrol-NSAID Derivatives as Anti-inflammatory Agents
      https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/cpb/64/6/64_c16-00030/_article

      Not sure just adding resveratrol here would help, and on top of that this study was on ibuprofen and not aspirin. Interestingly the derivative was more effective than any of the compounds isolated.
      I believe other NSAIDs as well can act as PPARα agonists, at least in other parts of the body. Ibuprofen and mefenamic acid included.

      /Ling

      Delete
    3. "Here we provide evidence that PPARα is constitutively expressed in nuclei of hippocampal neurons and surprisingly controls calcium influx and the expression of various plasticity-related genes via direct transcriptional regulation of CREB."

      Regulation of CREB and hippocampal plasticity-related genes by peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor α
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3804033/

      /Ling

      Delete
  15. Natural products on PPAR alpha:
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211383517301624

    Tells us that Pterostilbene is more agonistic than resveratrol at PPAR alpha, but I'm not sure how it competes with the many other substances mentioned in this paper.

    /Ling

    ReplyDelete
  16. Decanoic acid = capric acid = C10 also acts inhibitory on AMPA receptors (whick ketones or octanoic acid doesn't):
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4805082/

    /Ling

    ReplyDelete

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